(Hey - The following is an e-mail chat that took place today between Dr. Rich Frazer, President of Spiritual Overseers and a board member of Patrick Crossing. I took the liberty to clean up the misspelled & omitted words; otherwise, this is the real deal. It reflects both a great spiritual friendship and some current thinking in regard to simple church. Enjoy). - CJ
Date: Feb 27, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Chat with Rich Frazer
1:37 PM Rich: How you feeling about everything?
1:39 PM me: Okay - just getting a number from a college student - hang on. Had 5 great contacts today. already getting appointments set up for the new office.
1:40 PM Rich: Great! Are you still feeling the sense of freedom - like you were made to do ministry this way vs. institutional, keeping the machine going kind of thing?
1:42 PM me: Yes. but, there is the lure of the default - the default being - "Geeze, how are we going to accommodate all the people that we're meeting and beginning to see some fruit in? Let's think it through. Let's stress. Let's get busy." I am intentionally trying to NOT think about the future but to keep focused on the moment. It is a hard discipline and one the Lord seems to be insistent that I learn - at least for now.
1:47 PM Rich: The paradigm you're working toward (DANG - there is that preposition at the end of a phrase again) gives you freedom - and maybe the opportunity to redefine or recast, or rediscover (that's the word) what "ministry" objectives are - ie, NOT simply getting them to show up, lift up, and shovel out. What do you want these people to become?
1:56 PM me: That is becoming really easy to define. I have spent my ministry life loading people up with great concepts, great facts, 7 steps to this - 10 steps to that. I think, for the most part, I have succeeded in making people more religious - in the bad sense of that word. I know a lot of "factual" believers that are not terribly pleasant to be around, nor are they effective change agents for the kingdom. My goal is more Hebraic. I want to help people experience the nexus of God actively involved in their everyday affairs - to experience the supernatural presence of God at work in them and through them. If a person experiences God using them in some way, or providing miraculously for them - it is worth a thousand sermons. I find that the kind of challenge that gets people to that place is most effectively accomplished when I can see them face to face - where we can linger, where questions can be asked. Which would I rather have - a hundred people really experiencing God in the daily - or a thousand people showing up each week and learning a few religious facts? Application is more than just being inspired to go and do something. Application is revelatory. Paul prayed for the Ephesians to have a spirit of wisdom and revelation. The reality of the near presence of the Lord so blew away the writer of Hebrews and Paul that they would talk about the boldness of entering his throne room and really expecting Divine intervention - at any time. The word for "understanding" in the Greek is way more encompassing than just getting a fact in our head. One word study I did showed that it involved the totality of our entire humanity - all five senses - and more.
1:58 PM Rich: I would love for you to be my pastor. I'll wait till you're done to write more...
2:01 PM me: Hey, membership is open! Also, as far as "thinking" goes - Jesus talks about the leaven of the Pharisees, the leaven of Herod, and the leaven of the kingdom of this world. When you think about it - each represents some way of thinking that robs our faith. Our mind is a sort of gatekeeper for our faith. If our mind is leavened by any or all of these power bases, faith cannot be released and we cannot experience God. It is that simple. Our mind can be so corroded by religious thinking, by political thinking or by worldly thinking - that faith is never given an open gate from our mind to be released. Setting the captives free seems to be part of the job description.
2:04 PM Rich: And you are a great visual aid for the concept. What a great way to say it - faith needs to be released. Without it we cannot please God. I guess He is "unpleased" much - if not most - of the time. Personal testimony. Defining faith, though is precarious. I've heard that faith is a positive response to God's initiative. Saying "yes" to the opportunities He has already laid out for us (Eph 2:10). I know the definition in Hebrews - looking for what we can't see and waiting for what is coming. I like that, too. So - what thoughts can we implant into people's minds so they are THINKING Faith (good title for a sermon) 24/7, and responding with Christian Character and buying up - redeeming - the opportunities before them in these evil days? What say ye, Pastor Curt?
2:13 PM me: Well, how about this? Let's allow some mystery to re-enter the faith walk. To tidy up our theology to the point where there is no mystery - by definition - requires no faith. In other words, if my theology and methodology is so secured that I don't need to even think or process - I already have an answer or a methodology sequestered away - then why is faith even necessary? I simply believe in my beliefs which can pretty much run on automatic. That is not faith. I am blown away by how many times Paul uses the word mystery in his writings - it is a great "word bunny trail" to pursue. Great is the mystery of godliness. Mystery means that options are still on the table - the future is malleable. God can do anything because He is God. He can intervene at any moment for the most pedestrian of concerns - He can use me anytime, anywhere, to be his agent of change. That immediacy of His creative presence seems to be what the book of Acts is all about.
2:15 PM Rich: Amen. And what if IT really IS done according to our faith? I guess it really is. It is.
2:17 PM me: Yes, that is the point. Faith is exposing ourselves to the immediate presence of God's creative availability to release His wisdom and power into a situation. Wasn't it called the book of "Acts."
2:19 PM Rich: Yes, Acts. Or Doings.
2:19 PM me: It wasn't called the book of Doctrine. My job description boils down to: I get up in the morning and God does stuff.
2:21 PM Rich: Doings wrought by God through faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith (animated) and THE Faith (doctrine). THE Faith leads to faith. "Our Father" leads to "Your Kingdom come," give us this day, etc. yada yada yada. So - what do you need to do to catch yourself responding with confidence to God-ordained opportunities on a consistent basis?
2:27 PM me: To come full circle - we need to live in the moment - that is where God operates. He forgives our past, He secures our future, but He works with us in the present. Thus, I must keep my guard up against trying to ferret out the machinery of the future - what I was trained to do in seminary and beyond. Everyone wants to know the vision. What is the good future ahead? A better question would be: "What is the present opportunity?" God is already in the future figuring things out and arranging things. I don't want to crash that party anymore. It seems at the very least like bad manners - like talking to someone but always glancing over their shoulder. Intimacy happens in the moment. The Lord is here - right now - what more do I need or need to know than that? The Psalmist said, "The nearness of my God is my good."
2:33 PM Rich: Vision gives me intentionality, incentive, and a greater perception of what our Lord is doing now in light of what I hope and think He will ultimately accomplish then. For me - it's then that helps me see Him at work and close now.
2:36 PM me: Yes, we run amuck w/o vision. But, vision has been horribly co-opted by our penchant for "long-range planning". Vision, to me, is spelled out in the great commission, "Go into the future and make disciples. Teach them all this stuff that I taught you - teach them how to do it."
2:42 PM Rich: Excellent point. Vision precedes long-range planning. Vision is not the culprit - it is our hope!. Though we can plan the HS out of it all and build it all on a business model - sans faith. That always bugged me.
2:43 PM me: Yep. So full circle - life is good, carrying a light yoke, keeping it real in the moment - (no committee meetings ahead!) - Gotta run .
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4 comments:
Thanks guys. That has been a downer in the past, over-mechanizing the Christian walk so much that there is no need for mystery, God IS mysterious. It's interesting, as you both pointed out, Acts is all about going out and doing Jesus things, what more could we want? Jesus did some pretty exciting stuff and called us to do the same and more. I want to see those kinds of miracles where God shows up unexpectedly (to the traditional believer) but perhaps expectely to one who is walking in a new way.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys.
James
I think that mystery is one of the things the early church fathers (and mothers) understood was something that was NOT to be understood. As a result, their writings are full of miracles and expectation of what God has, is and will do. One of the things that really struck me today when someone said "we can chose to follow the curse or follow God", I really felt like following the curse is following the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We make our own plans and (if we remember) we ask God to bless them. Once redeemed, we are no longer to be following the curse, but rather following God. Greg pointed out that Jesus as a leader was a follower - he followed God and only did what He saw him doing. A good leader is a follower - always - of the Father through Jesus. Then there's no need for God to bless our plans because He's already in them. Thanks for sharing......
Who can ever fathom the mystery? That is, after all, why it is a mystery. Mankind has always been in the pursuit to master that which cannot be understood, to answer the unanswerable questions, to define all, to explain all, to comprehend all, then to dissect it, package it up, and give it to the world. It may be anything from a concept, or an idea, to rules of conduct, or definitions, or a standard. What is truth? Or goodness? Or morality? Are there moral absolutes? What about theology, or philosophy? But the answers are not to be found in these alone, for the answer lies in a Person.
“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.” - Jesus (John 5:39-40)
And who can ever truly understand the Person? He is the ultimate mystery. And anytime anyone thought they had Him figured out, He would go off and do something unexpected. He is fluid, constantly in motion, unchanging yet constant. How do we even begin to grasp the One who is both a Lion and a Lamb? He is the Creator who became like the created; the Master who is also the Servant. He is the holder of all wisdom and revelation, yet simple enough for the mind of a child. He is invisible, yet seen in everything. He is the One, yet actually Three – the forest as well as the tree. And He must be experienced to truly be known. We try to define it, to study and dissect and package it, and all the while He stands looking over our shoulder and saying, “Hey, I’m right here.” Could the Mystery really be that simple after all? “Ah. There you are, Jesus. The wait is over – I’m going with You.”
Simple Church: What a profound liberty!
Our group is studying in Romans and so i thought i would share this passage of scripture found in Romans Chpt. 11:33-36.
Oh, what a wonderful God we have! How great are his riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his methods! For who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who knows enough to be His counselor? And who could ever give him so much that he would have to pay it back? For everything comes from him; everthing exists by his power and is intended for his glory. To
him be glory evermore. Amen
This is a song of Kim Hill's (1991)
God works in mysterious ways!
Questions fall like showers of endless rain into oceans of the unexplained; someday it will all be made known. I can give no rational or words of wisdom, just a cloudy paraphrase – state of wonder, state of grace, pieces falling into place. More than just an old cliché…
God works in mysterious ways!!
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